Can Concrete (Gunite) Pools Float? Crazy Pictures

I was recently sitting with a customer looking to buy a fiberglass swimming pool and the classic question came out.

'Marcus, I was talking with the guy that gave me a quote on a concrete pool and he told me that I didn't want a fiberglass pool because it would float. Is that true?'

I could only sigh upon hearing such a question, as it is one that I figured the concrete pool builders would have gotten weary of using by this point. But instead of expressing my frustrations to this particular homeowner regarding the false words of another salesman, I went on to explain to her the truth, which is as follows:

1. Any vessel, underneath the ground, can float with enough water pressure pushing on it.
2. Of all types of pools, concrete/gunite pools are the most likely to float, as you can see in these photos, all of which are  concrete/gunite pools.
3. Fiberglass pools, although potentially could float if they were empty of water or had no concrete decking bond beam, almost never float.

Hydrostatic Pressure

Hydrostatic pressure, or water pushing upwards, is the reason why pools can pop up out of the ground. To alleviate this problem, the majority of concrete pools are built with a hydrostatic relief valve. In the case of fiberglass, as long as they remain full of water, and have a cantilevered concrete coping edge around them of at least 3' (this is our general rule of thumb at River Pools), then floating should never be an issue.(See Jason's recent article regarding hydostatic pressure and fiberglass pools)

After having literally installed a few hundred pools on the waters of Virginia and Maryland during our time in business, we have not had one of these pools pop-up or 'float' after installation. In fact, the only case that typically leads to hydrostatic issues with a fiberglass pool is when they are drained/emptied of their water, which is an absolute 'no-no' and can cause, instead of the pool floating, the pool's floor to buckle or crack. Such can be repaired, but is obviously not a good thing, which is why fiberglass pools should always remain full.

But remember this the next time a concrete pool salesman has the audacity to use the old 'fiberglass pools float' pitch. In fact, if you're in the process of buying a pool and getting quotes on both concrete and fiberglass, then I suggest having these little pictures handy in case the subject happens to come up. :-)

As, always,happy swimming to everyone and if you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to leave your thoughts below.

Marcus Sheridan, PoolSchool

Hydrostatic Pressure and Dewatering Systems for Fiberglass Pools

We are frequently asked questions about the effects of ground water on fiberglass pools.  The short answer is that it has no effect in most cases as long as the pool remains full of water. 

But you may be wondering, “What if the pool is not full of water?”

My response is-- Exactly!

The ground water around a fiberglass pool needs to be removed before the pool shell can be emptied or the water level significantly lowered.   This is not only true with fiberglass pools, but with any vessel…septic tanks, oil drums, gunite pools, and even vinyl liner pools.   Hydrostatic pressure is the term used to describe the force that water exerts on a structure.  Too much hydrostatic pressure = bad news, and like I said earlier this is not a concern with a fiberglass pool unless it is emptied.  The good news is that many fiberglass pools may not require draining for 30 or 40 years down the road.  That’s great, but when the time comes there needs to be a way to get rid of the ground water….which brings us to the subject of dewatering systems. 

Dewatering Systems

3 reasons fiberglass pool contractors should install dewatering systems on every pool:

•         It can take less than 30 minutes
•         It can cost less than $100
•         It can save someone tons of $$$ and heartache

 

Here’s how we do it at River Pools:

After the excavation for the pool is complete and the pool is set and level we drop one end of an 8” PVC pipe to the bottom of the excavation just outside of the deep end of the pool.  The pipe stands up in the hole so the top of it extends above the top of the pool shell.  We cut the top of the pipe off flush with the patio and place a skimmer lid on top of it and....  Viola...Instant access to ground water! If the pool needs to be drained simply remove the lid and drop a pump down in that baby a few days beforehand.  There’s no need for a permanent pump because the ground water doesn’t hurt anything when the pool is full; plus any pump you put down there will probably go bad before you have a chance to use it anyway. 

 

 (The image on the left shows the drainage pipe just after the installation of the pool.  The image below/right shows the skimmer lid that covers the pipe.)

 

Other dewatering systems:

There are other systems out there that work great.  We prefer this method because as I stated earlier it’s cheap and easy, and because it works on the principle of pushing water rather than pulling it.  Other systems utilize suction pumps like a “mud hog” that sit at ground level and draw water up from the lower lying excavation.  This works well, but it is much more effective to push water up from the bottom than pull it from the top.  These surface pumps also have to be much more substantial in size, they have to be primed, and some are gas powered which means they have to be refilled if pumping for days is required.  The system we utilize uses a standard sump pump that connects to a garden hose which is much smaller and more cost effective means to move water.  We also like this method because it pairs well with the use of clean gravel backfill.  The gravel acts as a sieve and allows the water to flow unrestricted up through the bottom of the pipe.  The level of water inside the pipe is naturally the same as the level outside of it.  When using sand backfill it is recommended to put a layer of clean crushed gravel down for the bottom of the pipe to rest on and to drill holes in the side walls of the pipe and cover with a filter fabric to keep sand from washing in.          

The bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what kind of dewatering system is installed around a fiberglass pool as long as it’s installed.  As I stated earlier, ground water around a fiberglass pool is perfectly fine in most cases, but if you’re having a fiberglass pool installed at your home do yourself a huge favor and have your contractor do something to insure that the ground water around you pool can be removed if necessary. 

Pool guys:  What other systems have you seen that work well? I’d love to hear what you’re doing. 

 

Related articles:  7 Deadly Sins of Fiberglass Pool Installations

Do Fiberglass Pools Work in Colder/Northern Climates?

 

Do Fiberglass Pools Work in Colder/Northern Climates?

By Marcus Sheridan, http://www.poolschool.us/

 

This just in, the following statements are TRUE!!!!!!

                           -The world is flat!

                           -The Sun rotates around the Earth!

                           -Fiberglass Pools do not work in cold climates!

Since entering the world of fiberglass pools roughly eight years ago, I've had the privilege to hear some incredibly false and off the wall ‘claims' and ‘myths' regarding fiberglass swimming pools. Of course, seeing this problem, and realizing it was frankly a direct result of so many concrete and vinyl pool dealers being scared to death of fiberglass' potential in the market, we decided at River Pools to become the leaders of swimming pool education, especially fiberglass pool education throughout the industry. This desire is a reflection of the blog you are currently reading as well as the points of this present article in which I find myself engaged.

A customer I've been working with recently received quite a few quotes from various pool builders. This gentleman lives in Northern Maryland, almost in Delaware, and he has been told by more than one builder that fiberglass pools are not a good choice for northern regions of the United States and other colder climates. This being said, I'd like to stress the following statement:

Anyone who tells you Fiberglass Pools will not work in colder climates is using fear tactics as a method for you to choose another type of pool. In other words, this person is dishonest and doesn't merit your business.

You see, whenever I've confronted a contractor who has made such a statement, they've never been able to scientifically prove this ‘phenomenon' whatsoever. Let me just state a few simple facts regarding this ‘cold climate' nonsense.

• 1. Fiberglass Pools have become extremely popular in Canada (The last I checked, Canada was pretty cold).
• 2. As water-carrying vessels, swimming pools, whether they are concrete or fiberglass, have the same ability to be ‘moved' by elements of nature. This is why such features as hydrostatic release valves, French drains, cantilevered decks, etc are commonly installed on said pools.
• 3. Freezing water (in the pool itself) also does not affect fiberglass pools. (Pipes must be winterized)

So the moral of this little blog is..............................If any pool guy has the nerve to use such a false statement like ‘cold climates' to persuade you, then you can happily take them off your list of candidates!!!...............

As always, happy swimming and don't forget to subscribe to our blog at the upper right hand of this page!

Marcus Sheridan

How Much Can a Mistake Cost on a Swimming Pool Purchase?

 By Jim Spiess, www.riverpoolsandspas.com

 

There are many factors to consider when purchasing a swimming pool. First- Is the type of pool you will purchase, will it be an above ground pool, or an in ground pool? Let's look at above ground pools first.

How much will our above ground pool cost, and if it is an expensive pool does that guarantee quality and durability? Just because an above ground pool is expensive does not guarantee anything, for that matter most of your more expensive above ground pools are generally cheap pools that will cost you upwards to ten thousand dollars, and only last a few years. Beware of companies that advertise on television and show a beautiful pool with a ridiculously low price. If it looks too be true it probably is. These companies will do the same with magazine ads, only to do a bait and switch when they show up. There are many good above ground pools out there, Artesian Pools and Strong Pools make great pools, but beware of the riser pool made by Strong Pools, because it has its issues. These two manufactures have a difference of about one thousand dollars in their price; both have great warranties, and will not only last for many years of enjoyment, but will keep their look over the years. How many times have you seen an above ground pool get put up in the neighborhood and a year or two later they look twenty years old? An Artesian 24 foot round pool should cost you in the neighborhood of five thousand dollars with installation, the Strong Pool would be about one thousand more. How much can you lose on an above ground pool purchase? Up to ten thousand dollars if you make a bad choice. It is not a good idea to purchase an aluminum deck for an above ground pool. I recommend a wood deck or a composite deck, which is much more attractive, more durable, and will probably cost less too.

Now let's take a look at inground pools. Here we have really five types of pools to choose from: There is the natural pool which is filtered with plants and can even have fish in them, with a structure that is basically a vinyl liner pool. Initial cost can vary upon plants, type of fish, and stone work, but will generally run around thirty thousand. This is a great pool if you are more interested in a pond than a pool. Personally, I would not spend much on it because vinyl liners have a limited life to them, and it can be a mess to replace the liner on a large pond with vegetation, rocks, and fish. The cost is not that cheap because of the designing, planting, installation, and more, and your loss could be up to ten thousand after replacing liner and surroundings.

Second we have the vinyl liner pool. Its initial pool cost is around $25,000, and it falls into the category of a temporary pool. Liners today generally last between five to ten years, depending on how your pool was installed. If the pool did not have an over-dig and was put in exactly to specifications than that will increase the life of the liner. The problem is a lot of vinyl liner pool companies put the pools in fast and do a slight over-dig to make sure they do not get wrinkles in the liner. This causes the vinyl liner to get stretched and it has now had years taken off the life of the liner. Also, if the pool is put in out of square, it will shorten the life of the liner. We have people who call us to replace the vinyl liner in their pool, and they want to give us the spec sheet for the liner that came with the pool. We never go by that. We have to  measure the pool ourselves and it has not once come up to the measurements on the spec sheet of the customer. Replacing a vinyl liner will cost you between four thousand to six thousand dollars with water. This is also what will bring the value of your home down when you go to sell it. The problem with swimming pools and home sales is that three red flags come up when someone sees a pool. 1. How much maintenance is the pool going to take? 2. How much will it cost me to run that pool each year? 3. What are my future expenses on that pool? With vinyl, you have fairly high maintenance, more cost in chemicals with the pool, and future expenses. Home value can even go down ten to twenty thousand.

Third we have gunite pools or concrete pools. This is a permanent pool, which is high maintenance, high chemical cost, and elevated electrical costs. This pool will have to be resurfaced on average every 10 years, and that can cost from ten to fifteen thousand dollars depending on the type of surface. The price of gunite pools depends on the size and scope of the work, although there are large companies out there that are selling them very cheap because of the economy. My feelings on this is if you have thousands of pools that you have put in and you kept your customers happy then you should not have to cut your cost on your pools so drastically. Most reputable gunite company's pools range around thirty five to fifty thousand dollars. I would beware of the companies that are offering the same pool for ten thousand less. These pools can bring the value of your home down too, usually less than a vinyl pool, around five to ten thousand dollars. Your loss can be as much as twenty five thousand if resurfaced twice during your ownership.

Fourth we have the fiberglass pool wall with a concrete bottom. Initial cost around twenty to twenty five thousand. This pool is still a high maintenance pool due to the concrete bottom, and a lot of times I have seen these pools put in and the bottom painted with a waterproof paint, this can lead to disaster. The life of these pools is determined by the installer, but the bottom of the pool will need resurfacing at a cost of around five thousand dollars. The pool tends to look cheap and will take away from the value of your home, around five to ten thousand dollars. Your loss is around ten to fifteen thousand dollars.

Last we have fiberglass pools. There initial cost is around thirty five to fifty thousand dollars, around the same as a good reputable concrete pool installer. Maintenance is low, operation cost is low, and future cost is very low. Adds value to your home because of all the above. Your gain is extra money when you sell your home, and years of enjoyment without all the work and headaches. But going with the wrong manufacturer, or picking the wrong company, because you are basing your decision on price can cost you more than you save. For instance the pool you have chosen appears to be the same, but the cost difference between the two companies is around five thousand. Well, you could end up the loser when the concrete does not turn out right or the pool was installed improperly, etc. There are many things that could go wrong that will cost you more than the five thousand you saved. Maybe you picked the wrong manufacturer and save five to ten thousand and then find out that you really lost around twenty five thousand and now have a non functioning pool in your backyard. Pool choices are tough decisions, you are spending a lot of money, the last thing you want to do is make a mistake that will cost you even more. For more information on fiberglass pool cost go to http://www.riverpoolsandspas.com/ or http://www.poolschool.us/

Is Now the Time to Get a Good Price on a Fiberglass Pool?

 By Jim Spiess, www.riverpoolsandspas.com

 

Finally, fiberglass pool costs are coming down. That is true with a lot of fiberglass pool dealers. But the question is: What is really a good deal on a fiberglass pool? As owners of a company that offers the best in fiberglass pools, with our Leisure Pool line and our Trilogy fiberglass pools, we have found that we are still installing a good amount of pools, but have come against some fiberglass pool companies that are pricing fiberglass pools at such low levels that they will not be able to survive. One only need to look at the car dealerships to see that cutting cost, without cutting anything else will result in financial collapse, and the last time I checked there were no government bailouts for pool companies. We at River Pools and Spas refuse to cut quality in any way or form, and that means we cannot cut fiberglass pool costs as much as the other fiberglass pool companies. Our manufactures at Leisure Pools and Trilogy Pools feel the same way. We have had people that we have visited say, they were more focused on quality rather than price if they had to choose between the two, and then after getting a few quotes, will turn around and focus on the price rather than the quality or service. It always amazes me that someone thinks in terms of two or three thousand dollars they are saving, when in reality it is 35 to 40 thousand dollars they are risking. When we sit down with the customer they already have a reference list of all the pools we have installed, which is well over 500 people, we do not pick and choose who goes on that list. In turn our competition will come in and offer a few references and a cheap price which always becomes a distraction from quality. I cannot believe that if a person is spending thousands of dollars on a fiberglass swimming pool that they would not demand a customer list, after all some companies boast that they only put in 20 or 30 pools a year so they can focus on the customer, great, have them give you that many names, so you can pick and choose who you want to call. These same companies will say that River Pools and Spas is focused on volume not quality, yet even with volume, you will see all of our customers on our reference list, dating back to when we started up in the swimming pool business, including our vinyl liner inground customers, and you will find if you take the time to call all of them you will get less than one percent negative feedback. Yet even with that we still are reducing the cost of fiberglass pool installations, just not as much as the companies struggling to stay in business, and that is why we will be around to service your fiberglass pool for years to come. And when you go to sell your home it will go up in value because of the beautiful fiberglass pool that you had River Pools and Spas install. Beware when the price differences start to hit over five thousand dollars. That is dangerous territory and do you really believe there is that much mark up on fiberglass pools? This is probably a company that is on its way out, and possibly with your money. Again I run into people who will still try the cheap swimming pool route, only to find out it was a disaster and they either spent more money than they intended too, or they are stuck with what they have, due to the fact that the ten thousand dollars or so they saved on the pool just will not fix all their fiberglass pool problems. For more information on fiberglass pool costs and prices visit http://www.riverpoolsandspas.com/  and http://www.poolschool.us/  

Fiberglass Swimming Pools Taking Over the Swimming Pool Industry

 

Fiberglass Swimming Pools: The New King of the Swimming Pool Industry

By Marcus Sheridan, www.PoolSchool.us

 

Fiberglass swimming pools at one point and time were frowned upon in the swimming pool industry. And frankly, much of the criticisms were merited. In the early stages, the biggest problems and issues with fiberglass swimming pools were:

-They looked like bathtubs in the ground.

-The materials (resins) utilized were faulty and led to osmotic blistering, cobalting (black spotting), etc.

-There was almost no customization.

-There were very few shapes and sizes available to consumers.

Well I am here to testify just how much this paradigm has changed, especially in the last few years. For example, eight years ago when my company River Pools and Spas first embraced fiberglass swimming pool technology and decided to make it our focus, we had to spend most of our time educating consumers to help them understand that fiberglass pools were actually superior to gunite/plaster pools in terms of longevity and maintenance. We also had to prove that these pools did not look cheap and could coincide nicely with any home, no matter the value. But in today's swimming pool market, fiberglass pools have become ‘en vogue', with pool owners of all types, demographics, locations, etc embracing their benefits. In fact, the majority of people that now call our company are looking ONLY at fiberglass swimming pools, and not even considering vinyl or concrete pools. Frankly, this growth has been absolutely astounding. But considering the power of the internet and the ease in which we are able to research and gather information, fiberglass swimming pool growth will only continue to skyrocket in the future as more and more informed consumers see their logical benefits versus vinyl and concrete pools.

Improvements

Bathtubs No More

The main reason fiberglass pools received the ‘bathtub' label in the past was three-fold.

• 1. Fiberglass pools were only available in a white color.
• 2. Most contractors did not cantilever or bull nose the concrete coping, and instead poured the concrete up to the lip of the fiberglass. (This is rather ugly and cheap-looking)
• 3. Most of the early fiberglass pools had no tiling options, such as waterline tile and inlay tiles.

Now, with the color finish explosion in the fiberglass swimming pool industry, cantilevered concrete becoming the standard, and tiling available literally anywhere on a fiberglass pool; the ‘bathtub' statement has almost become extinct.

Better Resins

Without getting too technical here, one of the main reasons why fiberglass pools had blistering and cobalting issues in the past was due to the improper resins used in the fiberglass shell's construction. Now, just about all fiberglass swimming pool manufacturers are using vinyl ester resins as the main component of the pool's structure. These resins do not allow water to pass through and therefore combat such issues as blistering and cobalting.

Customization

Another area fiberglass pools have been enhanced so greatly is through one's ability to customize the pool project. For example, such items as kiddie pools, tanning ledges, hot tubs, water features, mosaic inlays, vanishing edges, etc, etc are all possible with a fiberglass swimming pool project. This is also explains why more and more high-end customers who previously would have only chosen gunite pools are now deciding to go with a fiberglass swimming pool.

Shapes and Sizes

15 years ago, most fiberglass pool manufacturers didn't have more than 10-15 models to choose from. Now, quite a few manufacturers have more than 30 different models to choose from. This means that just about any swimming pool consumer will be able to find a pool that meets their needs.

Today's Market and What the Future Holds:

Because we have installed over 500 fiberglass swimming pools at River Pools and Spas, I've been able to see many trends within the fiberglass pool industry. In the past, many vinyl liner and gunite pool builders spoke poorly of fiberglass and always seemed to spread falsehoods regarding its benefits so as to make a sale. A perfect example of this is Anthony Sylvan Pools. Anthony Sylvan has always been one of the largest concrete pool builders in the world. And whenever I've competed with them head to head for a customer, they always seemed to mention falsehoods such as:

                -Fiberglass pools pop up out of the ground all the time.

                -You don't have a pool unless it's a concrete pool.

                -Fiberglass Pools don't work in colder climates.

                -Fiberglass Swimming Pools are not repairable.

Obviously, anyone that has a clue regarding fiberglass swimming pools knows these statements are grossly exaggerated if not outright bologna, but notwithstanding such claims can be heard even in today's information age. What makes me laugh about Anthony Sylvan though, as well as many other builders, is that these same anti-fiberglass companies are now on-board the fiberglass swimming pool train. For example, Anthony Sylvan is now carrying Trilogy fiberglass pools, and my guess is that many salespersons have had to drastically change their approach to selling against fiberglass.

This being said, fiberglass swimming pools are only beginning to see their potential here in the United States. While the popularity of vinyl pools and concrete pools have actually lessened over the past 10 years, fiberglass swimming pools have steadily increased. And with so many consumers looking for low maintenance, longevity, and aesthetics with their swimming pool, the fiberglass market looks to be the king of the swimming pool industry for years to come.

To Learn more about fiberglass pools, visit: http://www.poolschool.us/

Fiberglass Pool Myths, Fiberglass Pool Pop Ups

Fiberglass Myths and Misconceptions

By Marcus Sheridan, www.PoolSchool.us

Having been one of the first companies in Central and Eastern Virginia to embrace the fiberglass pool industry, I have been able to address the concerns of many clients involving the pros and cons of owning a fiberglass pool. Despite the exponential growth of the composite(fiberglass) market throughout the United States, I have found there are still some serious myths regarding the potential drawbacks of owning a fiberglass pool. Hopefully the following paragraphs will address and alleviate these issues.

Myth #1 Fiberglass Pools will float or pop-up:

This is one of the most amusing, and most common, of all misconceptions I have heard regarding fiberglass pools. If anyone (especially another pool dealer) tells you that fiberglass pools pop out of the ground, then they are simply being dishonest and trying to use fear as a means of motivating you to get another type of pool. There is a local company (I will not mention any names here) in the Mechanicsville area that loves to tell homeowners that every time there is a hurricane in Virginia, fiberglass pools all over the place float up out of the ground. I personally called this company once and asked them to give me just one name of someone who had a pool float, and of course they were unable to give me such information. During our five years in business, and after having installed well over 400 fiberglass pools in the ground, we have never had a pool float after installation. This is because not only are the pools always full of water, but the concrete deck engulfs the pool's outer lip, making it impossible for the pool to move unless the concrete deck moves with it. Hopefully I am explaining myself clearly here. I have hundreds of customers who would be happy to verify these facts. Please don't be fooled by anyone who uses this ploy as a means to push a potential customer in a different direction.

Myth #2 Fiberglass pools look cheap:

Had someone said this 15 years ago, I would have agreed with such a statement. But times have changed in the fiberglass industry, especially with the introduction of cantilever concrete coping, colored pool finishes, waterline ceramic tile, mosaic inlay tile, fiber-optic lighting, water features, etc, etc. With so many options and features to choose from, homes of all value ranges can easily find a pool that corresponds aesthetically with their appearance. When I show pictures of the pools we have installed to customers, I often get asked if they are seeing concrete pools. This is because fiberglass pools are now very beautiful and permanent looking. This is also why customers of all economic classes (we have installed many pools where the home value is well over 1 million dollars) are going with the fiberglass advantage.

Myth #3 Fiberglass Pools only work in warm climates:

This one really makes no sense to me at all. It is an accepted fact in the swimming pool industry that fiberglass has the ability to "flex" due to its incredible tensile strength, much more so than any other type of permanent pool (i.e. concrete). When people are concerned about freeze conditions having an adverse affect on fiberglass, they are forgetting that the water in a pool, when it freezes, expands in an upward direction (where there are no barriers). But the simple fact is that we have never had one customer sustain any damage to their fiberglass shell due to freezing weather conditions. Again, this statement is easily verifiable with our customer reference list.

Myth #4 Fiberglass pools are much more expensive than vinyl liner pools:

The answer to this one is a little tricky, but hopefully I'll explain myself clearly here. Typically, if someone is comparing a fiberglass pool to a liner pool, apples to apples, features with features, they will find that a fiberglass unit typically runs 5-10k more initially. I say initially because when someone is considering the cost of a pool, there are two different ways to arrive at the number. The first way is by solely looking at the initial cost of the project. The second, unlike the first method, takes the initial price but also adds the expenses of the pool over the course of its lifetime. For example, let's say you spend $25,000 initially for a vinyl-lined pool. Considering the liner will typically last 8 years on average (this number can be more or less depending on a variety of factors) before it has to be replaced, and the average cost of a liner replacement is usually between 3-5k, a pool owner could easily spend 8-12k on liner replacements alone during the first 20 years of the pool. The same principle is applicable to concrete pools who have to be replastered (every 8-12 years), where the average cost for this service is well over 5k. This is one of the great beauties of a fiberglass pool. There are almost never large expenses down the road for a homeowner to worry about. When a potential pool buyer figures in the cost of these long term repairs/expenses, as well as the year to year savings on chemicals, it is no wonder why so many consumers are willing to pay more initially for a fiberglass pool in order to pay less and have less headache in the long run.