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Can Concrete (Gunite) Pools Float? Crazy Pictures

I was recently sitting with a customer looking to buy a fiberglass swimming pool and the classic question came out.

'Marcus, I was talking with the guy that gave me a quote on a concrete pool and he told me that I didn't want a fiberglass pool because it would float. Is that true?'

I could only sigh upon hearing such a question, as it is one that I figured the concrete pool builders would have gotten weary of using by this point. But instead of expressing my frustrations to this particular homeowner regarding the false words of another salesman, I went on to explain to her the truth, which is as follows:

1. Any vessel, underneath the ground, can float with enough water pressure pushing on it.
2. Of all types of pools, concrete/gunite pools are the most likely to float, as you can see in these photos, all of which are  concrete/gunite pools.
3. Fiberglass pools, although potentially could float if they were empty of water or had no concrete decking bond beam, almost never float.

Hydrostatic Pressure

Hydrostatic pressure, or water pushing upwards, is the reason why pools can pop up out of the ground. To alleviate this problem, the majority of concrete pools are built with a hydrostatic relief valve. In the case of fiberglass, as long as they remain full of water, and have a cantilevered concrete coping edge around them of at least 3' (this is our general rule of thumb at River Pools), then floating should never be an issue.(See Jason's recent article regarding hydostatic pressure and fiberglass pools)

After having literally installed a few hundred pools on the waters of Virginia and Maryland during our time in business, we have not had one of these pools pop-up or 'float' after installation. In fact, the only case that typically leads to hydrostatic issues with a fiberglass pool is when they are drained/emptied of their water, which is an absolute 'no-no' and can cause, instead of the pool floating, the pool's floor to buckle or crack. Such can be repaired, but is obviously not a good thing, which is why fiberglass pools should always remain full.

But remember this the next time a concrete pool salesman has the audacity to use the old 'fiberglass pools float' pitch. In fact, if you're in the process of buying a pool and getting quotes on both concrete and fiberglass, then I suggest having these little pictures handy in case the subject happens to come up. :-)

As, always,happy swimming to everyone and if you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to leave your thoughts below.

Marcus Sheridan, PoolSchool

Fiberglass Pool Shoppers Alert: Very Disturbing Customer Experience and Photos

This is one of those blog articles that I really debated on writing. Why? Because it's one that shows the ‘ugly side' of the fiberglass pool industry. And as all our readers are very well aware, we have done everything we can at River Pools to educate the world, via this blog, on the GOOD of fiberglass pools. So as you read the following, I'd ask that you remember this key phrase, which applies to any pool, any industry, and any company:

Do not let poor actions of the few influence your good feelings towards the many.

And with that, let me explain something that is happening in the fiberglass pool industry right now. Many builders, as well as certain manufacturers, are in financial trouble. And because they are in financial trouble, they are doing some very, very shady things. I was sadly reminded of this last week when I got an email from a pool builder out West. This builder was called to a house where the original pool installer had started the project only to stop before even completing pool backfill process. The pool then sat for months and a 2^nd builder (the gentleman who called me) was called in to clean up the mess.

What the builder then found still makes me cringe. The large fiberglass shell that had been installed in the ground was a PREVIOUSLY USED and DAMAGED/REPAIRED SHELL. The homeowner had no idea of this fact until the 2^nd builder pointed it out. If you view the following photos, you'll notice repairs in the blue gel-coat (that don't even match) as well as repairs on the outside of the shell where it had  cracked previously. Such a disturbing scene begs two questions:

1. How would a fiberglass pool manufacturer ever allow this to happen?
2. How could a pool builder lack so much integrity to allow such a train-wreck to go in the ground?

Both of these questions will be answered over time, as the homeowner is obviously seeking legal recourse to remedy the situation. This much we do know-

• The manufacturer was made aware of the situation by the homeowner and said they would call back. That was 5 months ago and they now appear to be serioulsy ignoring the issue. (Now granted, there is the possibility that the builder could have bought this 'used' pool from someone other than the manufacturer, but such appears highly doubtful at the moment.)
• The original sales contract, reviewed by the builder, does not notate that this was a damaged, repaired, display or even a discounted model.

I have seen some shady builders over time, but is it possible that a manufacturer actually sold such a pool to a builder? Now granted, the manufacturer may have sold the shell to the pool builder in an ‘as is' state, but I would certainly think that anyone with any integrity whatsoever would have wanted to know the homeowner's information so that they could have informed them of what they were actually buying. Either way, and regardless of what happened, both parties are down-right accountable in my book and I truly hope this homeowner is able to recover the $30,000+ they have invested in this sad project thus far.

As I viewed these pictures, my thoughts turned to a recent email I received from Curt Prystupa, owner of Sun Fiberglass Pools. In his email, Curt discussed with me some of the disturbing trends he was seeing in the industry:

"The times are changing quickly in the industry.  The big guys are crumbling from inflated sales by dumping pools on the lots to show production and shipping but the losses mount on the aged inventory. ......... So now we(speaking of Sun Pools) compete with 2-4 year old shells on the clearance rack that have been sitting in fields with bankrupt companies looking to raise cash. The days of laying pools around and pay us as you go are done....."

Those were some strong and telling words by Curt, and I appreciate his candor. He also pointed out that manufacturer warranties usually start from the day of the pool's production, not from the day the pool is installed in the ground. In other words, if a pool has a 3 year finish warranty, and it's over 2 years old when it goes in the ground, then the warranty, at least in the eyes of some manufacturers, is just one year. Therefore, as a consumer, make sure you get this semantical issue written down on your contract so as to avoid such a problem.

Now many of you may be wondering who manufactured this pool and who the original builder was. I can clearly understand your desire to know this and you can be rest assured that once the legal proceedings on the matter are over, I will be writing a follow up piece to put all of the facts on the table. Until that point, we'll just have to let the story unfold in court.

So What Does This All Mean?

Let me reiterate what I mentioned at the start of this article. Do not let the actions of the few dictate your feelings regarding the many.  By simply following the advice we've hammered home over and over again throughout this blog, as well as our eBooks, you, as a consumer, should have no problem picking a reputable manufacturer and builder for you swimming pool.

After having spoken with literally thousands of pool builders and pool owners across the country over the past few years, there is much good to be said for many in this industry that I've grown to love and appreciate-which is the whole purpose for me even writing this article.

Your Advocate

We at River Pools are here to be your advocate. What makes this blog so very popular in the industry is its extreme candor and willingness to explore the good, the bad, and the ugly of what's happening in our world of swimming pools. Whether you already own your swimming pool or are in the research phase of making a decision, we wish you the best of luck in 2010, and we also invite you to comment on this article with any thoughts or questions you may have relating to this topic. We truly value the thoughts of you, our readers.

Marcus Sheridan

5 Ways to Make Your Swimming Pool Project More Affordable

Ok, so rumor has it that the economy is currently not as strong as it was this time five years ago....And although I have not officially confirmed this rumor, I'll just assume that it's true, at least for the duration of this article ;-) .....

But seriously, just about every pool shopper has a budget. As a pool guy, I get this. And that's what this article is all about. After having personally assisted over 500 people in their inground pool purchase, the concept of meeting a budget but also being happy with one's decisions can be a fine balance. To meet this balance, I have listed 5 suggestions here to save money with your swimming pool purchase.

1.       Wait on the Heater: The most common option I've seen homeowners add over the years after having bought their pool is a heater. Adding a heater after having owned the swimming pool a season or more can be a great idea because pool owners can get a true gauge on just how much they need a heater, as well as what type of heater will suite them best. For example, most of our heater customers get heat pumps instead of a gas or propane heater. But  come in two options: With and without chillers. (A chiller is a component that will cool the water as well) After having owned a pool for a period of time, most people can determine which one of the two types of heat pumps is the better fit for their needs. Also, because heat pumps cost 4k or more, such a wait can save quite a bit of money initially.

2.       Add More Patio Later: In most cases, the most expensive option of a swimming pool project is the patio. This is why, when someone is on a very strict budget, getting only 3' of a concrete apron initially and then adding additional patio later is a great idea. When adding patio later, pavers tend to be the best option as they integrate well with older patio structures and offer unlimited flexibility.

3.       Size Isn't Everything: I've seen this over and over again. People (Dads in most cases) can get so caught up in the size of the pool that they end up not being able to afford the swimming pool at all. Such logic makes little sense considering most parents are getting the pool for their kids, and as we all know, children will use a swimming pool for hours upon hours no matter what size it is.

4.       Plumb for the Slide or Water Feature: Just like adding a heater later, slides and water features are easy to add to a pool down the road as long as the plumbing for these units is done during the pool's construction. Adding such options makes a lot of sense for those persons on a budget because a slide alone will usually cost 2k or higher installed. Same with certain water features. But having the forethought to install simple plumbing at the beginning of the project, pool owners can save thousands initially while enjoying the water feature or slide they always dreamed of down the road.

5.       Install the Cover at the End of the Season: This mainly applies to persons who purchase security covers (the ones that look like a trampoline). Because many people have their pool installed during the first part of the year, it makes sense in some cases to wait until the end of the season to have their security cover installed, as there is no use for the cover during the summer months. Considering that most security style covers cost over 1k installed, this expense can be delayed 3-7 months in most cases.

Although there are many more ways to make your pool project more affordable and budget friendly, this article hopefully has given you some helpful pointers in the right direction. To close, I want to reiterate one other point that I've made in other blog posts regarding pools, wants, and budgets-

‘Which would your children prefer-To enjoy a simplistic pool in the back yard or a dream pool that's in your head?'

 

As always, happy swimming in 2010 and don't forget to enter your email on the top of this page to receive future articles just like this one.

Questions? Comments? We'd love to hear your thoughts!

Marcus Sheridan, PoolSchool

Awesome Fiberglass Pool Installation Video!

Many people, especially when debating over whether to install a fiberglass pool themselves or have a professional installer do it for them, are frankly not quite sure of what a proper installation entails. As we have done with so many other videos regarding the swimming pool industry, this video (produced by Jason Hughes) takes all the essential steps of unloading, excavating, setting, plumbing, filling with water, and backfilling a fiberglass pool and rolls it into a concise yet extremely informative and entertaining 10 minute video.

Upon reviewing the video, if anyone has any comments or questions about what a proper fiberglass pool installation involves, please don't hesitate to put your thoughts below.

As always, we appreciate the involvement of the community that has grown here at the River Pools and Spas blog.

Top 5 Vinyl Liner Pool Problems and Solutions

5 Vinyl Liner Pool Problems and Solutions

Vinyl Liner swimming pools make up a significant portion of the swimming pool market in the United States, with a very large majority built in the Northeastern segment of the country. Often times, when someone is considering the purchase of such a pool, they are confronted with a few important decisions regarding some potential issues and problems that come with this structure. This article will explain some of these issues as well as their corresponding remedies.

Problem 1: Ugly Steps/Benches

The main problem with vinyl liner pools comes down to their aesthetics. Many consumers complain that they look ‘cheap', and the honest answer is that this is true in most cases. This is also why much of this article will focus on ways to prevent a liner pool from looking cheap, as there are certainly steps (as well as some great vinyl pool builders in the industry) that can help alleviate this problem.

In most cases, the steps and benches of vinyl liner pools are made of white plastic which is structurally sound but the bright white typically doesn't match well with a colored liner.  To make things worse, these benches and steps also have a 3-4 inch wide 'lip' that is flush with the top of the patio making them conspicuous from all angles.....not the best thing to look at after investing big bucks into a lovely patio.

Solution: Recently, more and more builders have started using what's known as the 'vinyl over step' method where the steps and benches of the pool are integrated into the wall panel structure and covered with the vinyl liner.  Although this method is quite a bit more expensive, it brings uniformity to the color scheme of the pool and looks much, much better.

Problem 2: Ugly Coping

In the majority of liner pools, the coping consists of an aluminum C-track. The reason why this track is so commonly used is because it is easy to install and certainly easy to pour concrete up to. But the problem with it is that it makes for a white ‘rim' all the way around the pool's edge. This looks especially bad if someone is pouring any type of colored or stamped patio around their pool, as the color clash is quite noticeable and again deters from the entire look of the project.

Solution: There are two main alternatives to ugly aluminum coping on a liner pool. The first is by pouring a cantilever concrete edge. Although this technique is difficult (we've spoken about it extensively in other articles) , the aesthetic difference is night and day versus the aluminum coping. Another alternative would be a brick or paver coping (as seen in the lovely photo above). Again, this is much more expensive but certainly looks exceptional and will greatly enhance the look of the swimming pool.

Problem 3: Metal versus Polymer Walls              

Originally, all vinyl liner pool structures were made of wood. As you can imagine, this was not the best long-term solution for a pool structure in your back yard. With the average life span of wood being 10-15 years, manufacturers started producing metal walls instead, namely galvanized steel panels. These steel panels were a major upgrade from wood, much stronger, and are still used today by many manufacturers. But as we all know, metal is metal, and no matter how galvanized it is, it can oxidize over time under the ground. This is especially true with the surge in salt water pools around the world. Every vinyl liner will experience at some point a leak behind the liner itself; meaning pool water is making contact with the pool's panel structure. These leaks and drips usually start in the places the liner has been cut- return fittings, skimmers, etc are the main problem areas. And how does a metal panel react to constant exposure with salt water over time? Yep, it rusts. In fact, the panel can oxidize all the way through, which is a major, major problem and repair.

Solution: Many vinyl liner companies are now using polymer wall panels as the pool's structure. This is a very smart method of construction because these panels will not oxidize over time, and are unaffected by salt. In fact, I've seen many cases where a vinyl liner was getting replaced and the polymer panels, which were over 20 years old, looked brand new.

Problem #4: Liner Longevity

Obviously, the biggest concern most pool consumers have when considering a vinyl liner is the longevity of the liner. This is understandable because the average vinyl liner replacement cost, when one considers labor, liner, and water is typically 3-6k. The average lifespan for a vinyl liner is 8-12 years, but there are certainly cases where they will last less than 5 years or more than 15. In fact, the biggest factor that dictates the longevity of a vinyl liner in many cases is ‘luck', although certain measures can be taken to increase the longevity of the pools liner.

Solution: Although I could spend quite a bit of time discussing ways to increase the lifespan of a pool's liner, I'll just briefly mention these 3:

1. Proper Maintenance of Water Chemistry (Ph, Alkalinity, etc)
2. Proper Installation of the Liner by the Builder (Most people overlook this important fact)
3. Type of Water Sanitizer (High levels of chlorine (shock) are tough on a liner, which is why salt sytems and non chlorine systems are much easier on the liner's longevity)

Problem #5:  Floating Liner

In areas with high water tables it is possible for the water pressure under the pool to actually cause the liner to float.  When this occurs the liner looks like it's actually inflated, and feels like a water bed when walking on it.  In most cases the liner is not damaged from this incident, but it normally results in wrinkles in the liner after the ground water recedes and the liner falls back into place.

Solution: 

1.  To fix the ground water issue:  Install a dewatering system around the pool that will keep the ground water around the pool to a minimum.  This will obviously keep the liner from floating again.

2.  To remove the wrinkles in the liner:  Drain the pool and re-set the liner.  But this is a slippery slope; if the ground water is still there this will turn into a big mess.  It should also be stated that liners more than 3 or 4 years old dry, shrink, and become rigid VERY QUICKLY.  So I would not recommend this process to anyone without experience working with vinyl liners.         

So those are 5 common vinyl liner problems and solutions. Hopefully these recommendations will set you on the right path if you have decided to purchase this type of pool. Also, if you'd like to read further articles comparing vinyl, concrete, and fiberglass pools, click here.

(Photo by Greg Broyer of Precision Pools in Massachusetts)

 

Questions? Comments? Please don't hesitate to leave your thoughts below.

Marcus Sheridan, PoolSchool

Hydrostatic Pressure and Dewatering Systems for Fiberglass Pools

We are frequently asked questions about the effects of ground water on fiberglass pools.  The short answer is that it has no effect in most cases as long as the pool remains full of water. 

But you may be wondering, “What if the pool is not full of water?”

My response is-- Exactly!

The ground water around a fiberglass pool needs to be removed before the pool shell can be emptied or the water level significantly lowered.   This is not only true with fiberglass pools, but with any vessel…septic tanks, oil drums, gunite pools, and even vinyl liner pools.   Hydrostatic pressure is the term used to describe the force that water exerts on a structure.  Too much hydrostatic pressure = bad news, and like I said earlier this is not a concern with a fiberglass pool unless it is emptied.  The good news is that many fiberglass pools may not require draining for 30 or 40 years down the road.  That’s great, but when the time comes there needs to be a way to get rid of the ground water….which brings us to the subject of dewatering systems. 

Dewatering Systems

3 reasons fiberglass pool contractors should install dewatering systems on every pool:

•         It can take less than 30 minutes
•         It can cost less than $100
•         It can save someone tons of $$$ and heartache

 

Here’s how we do it at River Pools:

After the excavation for the pool is complete and the pool is set and level we drop one end of an 8” PVC pipe to the bottom of the excavation just outside of the deep end of the pool.  The pipe stands up in the hole so the top of it extends above the top of the pool shell.  We cut the top of the pipe off flush with the patio and place a skimmer lid on top of it and....  Viola...Instant access to ground water! If the pool needs to be drained simply remove the lid and drop a pump down in that baby a few days beforehand.  There’s no need for a permanent pump because the ground water doesn’t hurt anything when the pool is full; plus any pump you put down there will probably go bad before you have a chance to use it anyway. 

 

 (The image on the left shows the drainage pipe just after the installation of the pool.  The image below/right shows the skimmer lid that covers the pipe.)

 

Other dewatering systems:

There are other systems out there that work great.  We prefer this method because as I stated earlier it’s cheap and easy, and because it works on the principle of pushing water rather than pulling it.  Other systems utilize suction pumps like a “mud hog” that sit at ground level and draw water up from the lower lying excavation.  This works well, but it is much more effective to push water up from the bottom than pull it from the top.  These surface pumps also have to be much more substantial in size, they have to be primed, and some are gas powered which means they have to be refilled if pumping for days is required.  The system we utilize uses a standard sump pump that connects to a garden hose which is much smaller and more cost effective means to move water.  We also like this method because it pairs well with the use of clean gravel backfill.  The gravel acts as a sieve and allows the water to flow unrestricted up through the bottom of the pipe.  The level of water inside the pipe is naturally the same as the level outside of it.  When using sand backfill it is recommended to put a layer of clean crushed gravel down for the bottom of the pipe to rest on and to drill holes in the side walls of the pipe and cover with a filter fabric to keep sand from washing in.          

The bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what kind of dewatering system is installed around a fiberglass pool as long as it’s installed.  As I stated earlier, ground water around a fiberglass pool is perfectly fine in most cases, but if you’re having a fiberglass pool installed at your home do yourself a huge favor and have your contractor do something to insure that the ground water around you pool can be removed if necessary. 

Pool guys:  What other systems have you seen that work well? I’d love to hear what you’re doing. 

 

Related articles:  7 Deadly Sins of Fiberglass Pool Installations

Swimming Pools vs RVs and Campers: Which is a Better Investment?

Swimming Pool or RV , which should I buy...and how do I decide?

Such is a question I've heard many, many times as a pool builder, especially considering we deal with customers throughout Virginia and Maryland, one of the more prominent boating spots in the country. So to help you with the potential debate, I'd like to submit my own thoughts from personal past experience.

I grew up with a pool and my parents also had an RV. I must say I enjoyed both, but we enjoy things more when we are kids and have no responsibility in them. I did help a little with the pool and I would also help some with setting up the camp site when we arrived, but once an adult, I gathered the ‘complete perspective'.

Cost

If you are comparing cost a nice RV will cost you around what a nice fiberglass pool will cost you, in the 40,000 to 60,000 dollar range new. When comparing maintenance cost and time, the RV is definitely more maintenance. It needs to be cleaned while you are using it and when you are done using it for the week or weekend or any trip you take. You have tires, axles, and regular items like stove, refrigerator, water heater any number of things that can and will break down. They are much more expensive than swimming pool pumps and filters. This I know because my wife, step son and I live in a 38 foot fifth wheel while we built our last home. It can be very costly to repair an RV as we learned the hard way.

Usage

I have found through the experience of friends and family that RVs, in most cases, are something that tends to sit more than they travel. Even though the RV is not being used it still requires maintenance and upkeep.  On the other hand, when a swimming pool is closed for the off-season it does not require upkeep in most cases.

But let us take a closer look at owning a pool versus an RV. With a pool your whole family can use it-- kids, grandkids, your children's friends and you can have neighbors over to enjoy it too. With an RV you have to stick with just a few who can be available to travel. You have to worry about gas prices and tolls while you travel, not to mention there is nothing worse than camping when the weather is miserable all week long. With a pool, if the weather is miserable for a week you are at least at home and have other things to do. You not only have the cost of the RV but you have the cost of the camp sites. Depending on your RV, you will have to tow a car with you or be stuck to staying at the campsite. Setting up campsites is OK for one week stays but to me I am not a big weekend camper for a regular basis type of thing, it is just too much work. I find that with a fiberglass pool you would spend as much time maintaining your pool for one week that you would in just setting up your campsite in the first day, plus the cost of operating your pool for one year would be about the same as operating your RV for one month if you went on just four weekend trips and that is providing you stay pretty close to home.

Maintenance

As far as maintaining its value, RVs do not come close to maintaining their value; some people refuse to sell their RV just because they cannot get even close to what they paid for it. With a fiberglass pool it is different, they not only stand up to the test of time but they can increase the value of your home. In fact, the national association of realtors recently stated that a fiberglass or concrete pool will, in many cases, increase a home's value 3-7%.

So let's do a quick review of the two.

• RVs have high cost of operation even when not in use.
• Fiberglass pools have very limited cost even when not being used.
• RVs have high maintenance cost-- For a weekend trip 100 miles away with an RV fifth wheel will take almost $75 in gas $25 for camp site per night for two nights for a total of $125 dollars for a short two day stay.
• Fiberglass pools cost around $130 for a four month season for chemical and electricity.
• RVs have limited return of enjoyment due to time from home.
• Swimming Pools can be enjoyed on a daily basis because they are at your home. They can be spontaneous and require no ‘planning' whatsoever.
• RVs have restrictive family and friend inclusion.
• Swimming Pools can be enjoyed by the whole family and friends almost daily.
• RVs lose value quickly.
• Fiberglass Swimming Pools add value to your home.
• RVs take more time to maintain-- just to clean one is over an hour not including all the other maintenance like the toilet, shower, sink and securing and taking food out that went on last trip. Up to two to three hours work for one weekend trip is typically required.
• Fiberglass Swimming Pools take less than 1 hour a week to maintain with a high volume of use.
• RV life spans vary on how well they are taken care of.
• Fiberglass Pools will last a lifetime as long as manufacturer specs are properly followed.

Swimming Pool Plumbing Video: How to Install Skimmers, Returns, and Main Drain Fittings

Most fiberglass pool shells come from the manufacturer without skimmers, return fittings, main drain fittings, or any other thru-wall fitting installed on the pool.  This outfitting must be done by the pool installer and although it may seem simple in principle, it is a critical component to the successful installation of the pool.  This step-by-step video demonstrates how to locate, cut, and install these components so they are secure and leak free. 

 As always, feel free to comment and don't forget to subscribe to our blog before leaving the site.    

 

Video By Jason Hughes, PoolSchool

7 Deadly Sins of Fiberglass Pool Installations!

By Jason Hughes, PoolSchool

My life in the pool industry began at age 15 as a humble laborer in a small family owned pool business.  The term “green-horn” doesn’t even begin to describe my naiveté at the time.  I realized I had a lot to learn when one day, on an above ground pool installation, my boss sent me to find the “wall stretcher” behind the seat of the truck.  I returned after thirty minutes of tearing the truck apart looking for the thing to find my two comrades rolling on the ground with laughter.  It was then I realized the stupid tool didn’t even exist.   

Well some things never change, I still have a lot to learn; but since my partners and I started River Pools and Spas around 10 years ago we have added over 600 inground fiberglass pool customers to our reference list.  One thing’s for sure, we’ve seen plenty of the good, the bad, and the ugly of fiberglass pool installations.  I can honestly say that if it’s possible to make a mistake with a fiberglass pool we have probably done it, or at least seen it. 

The title of this article uses the term “sins” to describe some of the common installation methods many contractors use that are downright flawed or at least have room for significant improvement.  We have committed each one of these 'sins' ourselves and I consider them 'deadly' in the since that they have cost us tens of thousands of dollars and huge amounts of stress on ourselves and our wonderful customers.  As we have evolved through the years, we have consistently been humbled by our mistakes and chose to repent and changed our 'sinful' ways; however I don’t profess what we teach is 'doctrine'.

This article is simply my best effort to do two things: 

1. Educate the new or less-experienced fiberglass pool installer so they do not make the same costly mistakes we have made 
2. Empower the consumer with the information they need to insure they get a quality product.

The 7 Deadly Sins of a Fiberglass Pool Installation

 

 1.  Poor Quality Cantilevered Concrete Coping Regardless of how well the pool is installed, if the contractor does a poor job on the cantilevered coping the entire project looks bad.  We had a rude awaking when we poured cantilevered concrete coping on our first fiberglass pool.  Our concrete guy had been doing concrete for over 30 years and had poured literally tens of thousands of yards of concrete.  We felt confident enough….until we started pouring the concrete and found that the cantilevered forms were not holding.  We scrambled and managed to secure everything and thought we were out of the woods…until the next day when the nightmare continued when we stripped the cantilevered forms.  The surface of the coping that was supposed to be clean and smooth looked more like chunky oatmeal.  We managed to make it right, but it has taken us many, many concrete pours to get to a point where we have mastered the art of cantilevered coping.  We have found that there are two critical processes to producing quality cantilevered coping:

1.  Proper Cantilevered Form Installation- Because cantilevered forms are made of Styrofoam, installing them so they are secure enough to withstand the weight of the concrete can be difficult.  If installed improperly they tend to bow or completely blow out.  Keeping them straight on a straight wall pool can be tricky and tight corners can also be difficult to form.  The key is to use tape to help with bends and twice as many ties as the form manufacturer recommends.      

2.  Proper Concrete Placement- Installing the forms so they are secure is only the first step.  To insure that the final coping surface is clean and smooth, steps must be taken to remove air bubbles and bring the cream of the concrete to the face of the form.  This is done by tapping the outside of the form causing the concrete to vibrate.  For more information about the importance of cantilevered coping check out our other articles on the topic.

2.  No Dewatering System Installed

If you study theology at all you know that there are two types of sins:  Sins of commission and of omission.  This one is one is a sin of omission.  There are several preventative measures that should be taken during the initial installation of the pool that can save contractors and customers alike significant heartache down the road.  A dewatering system is one of these measures, and a pool installer that does not install one on every pool either doesn’t understand their importance, or is suffering from a serious case of short-term thinking.  A dewatering system provides a means to remove the ground or surface water around the outside of the pool in the event that the pool has a leak or has to be drained.  Hydrostatic pressure is the term used to describe the force that the ground water exerts on the pool shell.  Removing the ground water outside the pool is critical because if this is not done and there is more water outside of the pool than inside, the hydrostatic pressure can reach a point where it can damage the pool. 

Granted, most fiberglass pools will not have a leak or need to be drained within the first twenty or thirty years of its life; but regardless of the manufacturer or installer a certain percentage will require draining for various reasons soon after installation, and all will eventually have to be drained, even if it’s fifty years from now.  We install a very simple and inexpensive dewatering system on every pool regardless of soil condition or location.

 

River Pools Dewatering System:

We take an 8” PVC pipe about 6-8 feet long and drop it down to the bottom of the excavation outside of the deep end of the pool after it has been set.  The bottom of the pipe is at the deepest part of the excavation and the top extends above the top of the pool.  We then encase the pipe in gravel as we backfill the pool.  When it’s time for concrete we cut the top of the pipe off flush with the top of the deck and cover it with a skimmer lid.  That’s it….instant access to ground water.  If the pool needs to be drained simply remove the skimmer lid and drop a pump down the pipe and pump the ground water out.  This costs less than $100 per pool and frankly is a step that a pool contractor can’t afford to miss.   

 

 3.  Poor Plumbing Practices

There are three critical aspects of plumbing a fiberglass pool that are neglected on a regular basis:

1.  Pressure Testing

This is a critical step to plumbing any pool.  The obvious purpose is to find any leaks before the pool deck is installed.  No one is perfect, and the truth is that the folks plumbing the pool sometimes make mistakes and there are even occasions when plumbing materials are defective.  Leaks are going to happen, and there’s no disputing the fact that it’s easier on everyone to find and fix them before the patio is poured.

2. Securing plumbing to prevent settlement

Fiberglass pool installers should employ some means to insure the plumbing around the pool doesn’t settle over time.  We Drill holes in the top of the pool shell and tie the plumbing up with cable and have found this to be quick, cheap, and effective.  It also allows us to pre-plumb the pools before we set them in the hole.  If this is not done there is a significant risk that the plumbing will settle over time putting pressure on the fittings in the pool.  This is especially the case when sand is used as you will see later.    

3.  Using suitable materials

There are predominantly two types of PVC pipe used on inground pools today.  They are rigid PVC and flexible PVC.  I have written on this topic before, and questioned why flexible PVC is still widely used throughout the industry despite the fact that manufacturers of the pipe clearly state that it is not suitable for underground use.  Rigid PVC is superior in terms of strength and durability; however it takes longer to install.  We have found that heat bending rigid PVC is the most effective means to plumb fiberglass pools because it allows the pipe to form to the contour of the pool while maintaining the benefits of rigid pipe.

 

4.  Sand as a Base and Backfill Material This is another topic we have discussed in detail in previous articles, and based on our experience we feel that despite the fact that sand is accepted industry wide as the material of choice, there are several inherent disadvantages to using sand as a base and backfill material as opposed to gravel.  These disadvantages are consequences of a single property of sand:  It liquefies when saturated with water.  This characteristic of sand has some serious implications on fiberglass pools.   

They are as follows:

1.  A liquid base is a poor foundation for anything.

As my partner Marcus eloquently pointed out in his article on the topic, ‘the foolish man built his house upon the sand’.  Pools installed on a saturated sand base will sometimes settle, normally during the process of filling the pool with water because the initial weight of the water displaces the sand under the pool.  Granted, in an ideal world the sand under the pool would never be saturated with water, however in the real world it does become saturated from ground water conditions, rain during the install, surface water running into the excavation, etc.  If this happens and the pool does actually settle, the installer has to make a call whether it’s severe enough to empty the pool and re-set it, which takes a ton of time.  I don’t want to have to make that call, and I don’t want someone who’s on a tight schedule making that call in my backyard either.  Clean crushed gravel is the perfect base for a fiberglass pool because as long as the soil under the base is solid the pool will never move…..hence the enduring success of the 'wise man’s' house.

2.  Bulges in pool walls

In principle this one is simple.  When sand is used as a backfill material around the pool in an area that does not have sandy soil, a 12-24 inch column of sand rests on the side of the pool.  When that sand becomes saturated with water and liquefies it exerts a tremendous load on the side wall of the pool and bulges the wall.  Now, this only happens to a certain percentage of pools because it takes a combination of all of the wrong conditions, but it does occur!  Clean crushed gravel is the ideal backfill material because its properties do not change when saturated with water.  It performs the same wet or dry and the point on point friction of the gravel allows it to hold its form.  Pea gravel is another backfill material commonly used.  It is superior to sand because it doesn’t liquefy, but doesn’t hold as well on the side walls of the pool because the little round stones are act like ball bearings.    

3.  Plumbing settlement            

In a perfect world the sand backfill around the pool will be 100% compacted as the pool is installed, however I would submit that this is next to impossible.  Every time I have seen a pool backfilled with sand a year or more down the road the sand has settled 6 to 18 inches.  This has no direct impact on the pool shell, but it puts a tremendous downward pressure on the plumbing that’s encased in the sand material.  This manifests itself in the way of leaky fittings in the pool.  As the plumbing is pulled down it takes the thru-wall fittings with it.  Leaks start at the bottom of the fitting as it becomes cocked and is pulled away from the wall of the pool.  If enough pressure is exerted on the plumbing, the inside of the fitting will actually crack open and even eventually break off.  This predominately happens with return and light fittings but can happen at any point a fitting goes through the wall of the pool.  The astonishing thing is that a pool can be installed 100% according to industry standards and manufacturer specs and this problem can still occur.  The answer, once again is gravel backfill.  Why?  Because it compacts on placement and simply doesn’t settle.  Once it’s in the hole, it doesn’t move…..and neither does the plumbing.  For obvious reasons, we are huge proponents of clean crushed gravel as a base and backfill material and feel that it is the only material that performs acceptably in any condition.

 

5.  Sagging Steps and Bowed Walls

One of the great advantages of many fiberglass pool models is there majestic steps and bench areas.  However, because of the inherent flexibility of fiberglass, measures must be taken to insure these steps and benches remain level.  If the proper steps aren’t taken these areas will tend to sag, and once the patio is placed around the pool there’s no turning back.  We have found two methods of solidifying these areas to insure they look great. 

1.  With a long set of steps you can actually dig out from underneath the top step before pouring concrete and jack the steps up level and brace them, being careful to distribute the weight across the step and not at one point.  Pour concrete in the area under the steps to insure they will never move again.

2.  A better method is to use CMU block to brace steps and benches during the initial installation of the pool.  This will insure that they will never move and gets the steps and benches perfect from jump.

Another common problem that occurs on straight wall pools is that the walls will bow in or out.  The key is to run a string line from corner to corner of the pool and constantly monitor the walls during the backfill process; using the pressure of the water inside the pool or the backfill material outside the pool to achieve a perfectly straight wall.   

6. Building up for Patio with Dirt

There is no such thing as a perfectly level yard and one of the most challenging aspects of many projects is finding a way to manage the slope of a given site.  It seems like common sense right?  You have a downhill side of the pool that needs to come up 30 inches and you have this huge pile of dirt just sitting there; why not just use that? 

 

We simply won’t do it for several reasons:

1.  The soil hasn’t been tested probably isn’t a suitable base for a patio

2.  If the soil is good, it’s very, very difficult to compact the soil to an acceptable level.

3.  Based on our experience, there’s a significant chance it’s going to settle and cause problems down the road. 

Keep in mind that down the road is 3 to 5 years, long after our workmanship warranty has expired.  But we don’t build pools to last a couple years; we build them to last a lifetime. 

The problem is that every customer cannot afford to build a retaining wall; so what’s the solution?

The solution is what we call the turn-down slab.  We have our concrete return to ground level, where ever that is, so we are essentially pouring a concrete wall.  If the yard is 20 inches low on the side away from the house, there’s 20 inches of concrete being poured there.  We either leave the wall exposed or backfill against it to conceal it.  This is a ‘win-win’ for everyone because we can sleep at night knowing we’ve installed a quality product, and the customer is only charged our cost of labor and materials and they have a pool deck that will never move from settlement…..guaranteed!   

 

7.  Improper Leveling Methods

In my opinion the only way to properly set and level a fiberglass pool is to insure the pool is right upon the initial set, and not to manipulate the level of the pool while it sits in the hole.  We have not had long term success using the method of raising the pool to the desired level and introducing material under the pool to maintain that level.  There’s nothing more frustrating to a fiberglass pool installer than to spend hours and hours lifting and re-setting a pool in an attempt to get it level, but we have found that this initial investment of time is well worth the sacrifice considering that the pool is resting in an un-altered state on a solid foundation. 

 

Well, there you have it!  The 7 deadly sins of fiberglass pool installations.  As I stated earlier, this is simply a list of lessons we’ve learned based on our experience of installing well over 600 fiberglass pools.  It must be noted that a pool contractor can completely ignore each and every one of these and still install a fiberglass pool that meets industry standards.  These standards exist to insure that every pool meets a minimum requirement. 

At River Pools and Spas we have never been content with a minimum level of performance; in fact we are never content with our own level of performance.  There is always room for improvement.  There is always a way to make our systems, process, and products better.  I’m sure that ten years from now this list will have changed and certain things that we are currently doing will be deemed “sinful”, but until then we’ll be doing our best to stay on the straight and narrow.    

Thanks for reading!  As always, be sure to chime in with your thoughts on the matter, and be sure to subscribe to our blog before leaving the site.            

 

Do It Yourself Pools: A Case For and Against

By Jim Spiess

I often get asked buy pool shoppers, "Can I put that pool in myself?" Answering this question can be a slippery slope, but the short answer is ‘yes'.

But the real question is do you want to put the pool in yourself? There are several reasons that homeowners want to put in their own pools. For some it is the challenge and the reward with knowing that they have accomplished such a task. For others, it is the fact that they want to save money. And then there are those who are in the construction business or have friends that are in the construction business that can ‘help' with the process.

Is it easy?

It is a common belief that putting in a fiberglass pool is easy and anyone can do it. This has some truth to it, but there is also a reason why you've likely heard of fiberglass pool installation disasters. Like anything that's ‘easy' to build, there are many, many mistakes that can be made. If a fiberglass pool was so easy to install there would be many more factory direct fiberglass pool companies. The truth is there are very few factory direct fiberglass pool companies and the ones that do exist are often viewed by many industry experts as a lower-quality product.

To go factory direct or not?

Almost any fiberglass pool manufacturer will sell the consumer a fiberglass pool if they do not have a dealer in the area, but there is a reason that over 95% fiberglass pool consumers have a professional install their pool. There is also a reason that most fiberglass pool manufactures want dealers installing their pools-- it comes with the fact that they will not have to worry so much about the warranty of the pool when it is installed professionally.

So let's address the pros and the cons of a Do it yourself fiberglass pool. The first question and the most important question is do I still have a warranty? Often times, the answer is ‘no'. This is because if your pool has not been installed by a ‘trained factory installer' they will usually not honor any warranties. But this is understandable, as they do not know if you have installed everything properly and there are a number of things that can go wrong during an installation that could damage the pool.

How much money can I save if I install my fiberglass pool?

 This is a tough question to answer, but the answer is usually $5,000-$10,000. This is under the best of conditions, and by that I mean no mistakes are made and the hole is dug exactly. If you do too much of an over dig you will lose money on the stone and have to compensate with additional materials. There has been more than one occasion when I've seen homeowners waste over $1,000 in additional fill materials just offset improper excavation. Other expenses to keep in mind are: crane rentals, permits, backfill materials, patio materials, water for the pool, etc, which I'll talk more about later.

We have had people who started out with a do-it-yourself fiberglass pool that they bought from us and then hired us to come out and take it over because they realized the risk was not worth the savings. We have also had people who have bought factory direct fiberglass pools and had have us come out to fix the problems of their self install and the money saved was not only lost but they spent more than if they had just hired someone to begin with.

Homeowner Responsibilities

Not everyone can put in a pool, but some can and I have seen some nice jobs done by the homeowner. This is the exception, not the rule. Installing the pool means getting all the permits. This also means you are the general contractor. You will be responsible for any sub contractors having workman's compensation and if you do not 1099 them you could be responsible for any taxes and penalties that the IRS imposes on them if they do not claim it and get caught. You are also the first person in the line of fire for any lawsuits that may happen due to any type of injury that may happen with the use of your pool, even with an uninvited guest. I have seen people hurt on jobs and when it happens someone must pay the bills. As you can see, the Cons can far outweigh the Pros, so buyer beware.

Misleading Prices

I want to touch on one more thing about factory direct fiberglass pool companies. Many of these companies are not highly concerned as to how well your job goes, which is why they try to make a fiberglass pool seem like a cash and carry item. These same companies will post what appears to be low prices on their websites to entice you to either install the pool yourself or give you the option of them supplying you with a couple of their factory installers to come out and install your pool for just a couple thousand dollars. By the time you add up the cost of the excavator, crane, gravel, plumbing, concrete, and many other things that are needed for the project, you have likely not saved much money at all. Instead, you just managed to be fooled into buying a cheap pool at a high price. Sadly, I've recently seen some fiberglass companies that I thought were reputable manufacturers stooping to these types of selling practices, which is likely a result of difficult economic times. Notwithstanding, it's misleading and I don't like it.

Coping Disasters

The other big question mark for your pool project is the patio and coping (typically cantilever concrete, a topic we've spoken much about). This is what will make or break the look of your pool. There are still some companies out there that will try and convince you that pouring to the lip of the pool is fine.  I agree with such a statement if the pool's aesthetics are of no concern to you. But as we have mentioned here many times on this blog, the most common problem with fiberglass swimming pool installations is finding someone that can pour your cantilevered concrete without doing a terrible job. If I had a dollar for every do-it-yourself cantilever disaster we've seen, I'd be on a beach writing this article, and not in my office. So again, make sure you know how you're going to handle your patio and coping and don't just allow any ‘concrete Joe' to come in and take care of the most important aesthetic component of your swimming pool.

It is important that you do your research before you make that $30,000+ mistake. I know you may have seen factory direct pools on the internet for $12,000, but as I've stressed here, that number is just a part of the total expense. So be clear on your expenses. Get a list from the manufacturer and other pool builders as to what the entire project should cost. And talk to your friends that have had a pool installed, as they'll likely point out components of the project you might be missing or didn't account for. Good luck and may your pool purchase be fun and exciting.

Questions about self install pools? Please leave them below!

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